THE RED GAMBIT SERIES

I am curious as to what kind of small arms the French forces used. I got the idea that they used a eclectic assortment. Can someone tell me more?

Indeedy. Depending on their roots [ie Free or Vichy] the French forces had a number of weapon choices. Free forces used the spectrum of Allied weapons and, from my info, that was limited solely by what they could get their hands on and how easy it was to keep supplied. berthier and lebel rifles were in use til the war's end, and many of them had stayed hidden during the occupation and come out of hiding post-invasion. I believe the FFI unit shad a good leavening of such ancient rifles.

Bear in mind, that the US and UK governments had agreed to logistically support the Free French, whereas the FFI was not part of the plan. My info is scarce but I seem to remember pics of FFI in early 1945 with German weaponry, which would make sense. I've also evidence to suggest that they had their paws on a number of sten guns.

The Germans kept up production of the MAS38 smg, and you will see them in a number of pics.

Anyway, back to the Free Forces. They benefitted from allied weapons in the main, which also made logistics easier.

There's plenty of info out there if you have a look :-)

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at January 3, 2014 at 12:32 AM

Indeedy. Depending on their roots [ie Free or Vichy] the French forces had a number of weapon choices. Free forces used the spectrum of Allied weapons and, from my info, that was limited solely by what they could get their hands on and how easy it was to keep supplied. berthier and lebel rifles were in use til the war's end, and many of them had stayed hidden during the occupation and come out of hiding post-invasion. I believe the FFI unit shad a good leavening of such ancient rifles.

Bear in mind, that the US and UK governments had agreed to logistically support the Free French, whereas the FFI was not part of the plan. My info is scarce but I seem to remember pics of FFI in early 1945 with German weaponry, which would make sense. I've also evidence to suggest that they had their paws on a number of sten guns.

The Germans kept up production of the MAS38 smg, and you will see them in a number of pics.

Anyway, back to the Free Forces. They benefitted from allied weapons in the main, which also made logistics easier.

There's plenty of info out there if you have a look :-)

 

I was wondering what the French 14th would use (American, British, German, or French), and also the Foreign Legion-namely the regular units. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_weapons_of_France

I was wondering how common would the MAS 36 rifle be among French forces in RG.

Keith Lange at January 4, 2014 at 12:47 AM

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at January 3, 2014 at 12:32 AM

Indeedy. Depending on their roots [ie Free or Vichy] the French forces had a number of weapon choices. Free forces used the spectrum of Allied weapons and, from my info, that was limited solely by what they could get their hands on and how easy it was to keep supplied. berthier and lebel rifles were in use til the war's end, and many of them had stayed hidden during the occupation and come out of hiding post-invasion. I believe the FFI unit shad a good leavening of such ancient rifles.

Bear in mind, that the US and UK governments had agreed to logistically support the Free French, whereas the FFI was not part of the plan. My info is scarce but I seem to remember pics of FFI in early 1945 with German weaponry, which would make sense. I've also evidence to suggest that they had their paws on a number of sten guns.

The Germans kept up production of the MAS38 smg, and you will see them in a number of pics.

Anyway, back to the Free Forces. They benefitted from allied weapons in the main, which also made logistics easier.

There's plenty of info out there if you have a look :-)

 

I was wondering what the French 14th would use (American, British, German, or French), and also the Foreign Legion-namely the regular units. 

I was wondering if the FFI maquis be given new weapons when they were incorporated into the Free French regular military, like the 14th Infantry Division, or would they keep the ones they already have?

Wouldn't the French want to standardize small arms as much as possible? To that end, wouldn't they step up production of the MAS 36 rifle?

What the French might want and what they might have the capacity to achieve might be two different things. This is not something I have spent much time researching. I will consider it and see if it warrants investing research time.

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at January 18, 2014 at 2:52 AM

What the French might want and what they might have the capacity to achieve might be two different things. This is not something I have spent much time researching. I will consider it and see if it warrants investing research time.

Would the French continue using the MAS 36, or would they try to replace it with a semiauto rifle, like the Garand or MAS 48?

Whatthe French might want and what they mioght get are two different things of course. In my opinion, the Garand was the finest infantry rifle of WW2, for no other reasons than its reasonable accuracy and high rate of fire. Others were better in terms of accuracy and ability to be used in different applications, but I think any army would have loved the Garand in numbers.

Whether the US would have permitted the French to have them in numbers is another matter. In RG the performance of the new FFI divisions was abyssmal, and would not have encouraged the US to issue out the Garand, when better fighting units were also in need.

Politically, there would be pressures, in both ways. The French are very much French oriented, m ore so than many nations, and the use of French weapons would be seen as a point of honour possibly? Look at how they rushed the ARL out, just to show the France still had the capability. However, they can also be pragmatic, and would use anything that came to hand, if it did the job. By example, the FFI, who were formed into divisions towards the end of the war, and sent off to fight in a collapsing Germany, and even then performed well below par in the main, mainly because they were thrown together out of resistance fighters, latecomers to the cause, volunteers, and ex-soldiers. They had little military value, but politically were of great use to De Gaulle, who could demonstrate a growing French Army.

I wonder if its likely thatthe French could have negotiated a licence to build the Garand, and then I would wonder on  how such a weapon would have performed?

So the FFI units were not so hot? Could you please tell me more about that? The French resumed production of the MAS 36 in fall of 1944 following liberation, and they may feel that it's quite sufficient for the time being and don't need to adopt a new semi auto rifle. However, if the SKS should appear in significant numbers, that might well change. The French already had a few indigenous semi auto rifle designs-the MAS-40 and 44 series.

I suspect that the FFI units probably had mostly older stuff-such as Berthier rifles. 

You may find this page to be interesting:

http://www.virdea.net/french/mas-auto.html

Interesting link. Thank you. Never been my strongest subject, mind you.

My understanding is that the FFI went through a remarkable expansion in early June 1944, for reasons you can imagine. The small number of veteran Maquisards found themselves with new volunteers and personnal from Vichy units, who could see which way the wind was blowing. De Gaulle, in order that France should be seen to make a larger contribution to the Allied war effort, oversaw a process that militarised these units, creating paper formations of note, but, in reality, conglomerates of little ability and cohesion. There were exceptions of course. The Free French Division, incorporating the foreign legion, was a splendid formation, as were the Moroccan and Algerian units; 2nd French Armoured also. I think that, to De Gaulle, it was a question of bums in pews, and to hell with quality.

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at January 27, 2014 at 3:24 AM

Interesting link. Thank you. Never been my strongest subject, mind you.

My understanding is that the FFI went through a remarkable expansion in early June 1944, for reasons you can imagine. The small number of veteran Maquisards found themselves with new volunteers and personnal from Vichy units, who could see which way the wind was blowing. De Gaulle, in order that France should be seen to make a larger contribution to the Allied war effort, oversaw a process that militarised these units, creating paper formations of note, but, in reality, conglomerates of little ability and cohesion. There were exceptions of course. The Free French Division, incorporating the foreign legion, was a splendid formation, as were the Moroccan and Algerian units; 2nd French Armoured also. I think that, to De Gaulle, it was a question of bums in pews, and to hell with quality.

Yeah, I think that he wanted to get as many men in the field as possible as fast as possible. Eisenhower wasn't terribly comfortable with the idea, I believe. He thought that the FFI-while superb as partisans waging irregular warfare against the Germans- being just incorporated into the military like that would do more harm than good. Oh, btw, I don't know if the US actually sent as many as 50,000 Garands to the French by 1945. I read that the clear majority of the rifles that were sent were older models. Here is a excerpt from "U.S. Army in World War II - Rearming The French" by Marcel Vigneras, p. 248: "In July of 1944, answering a query from the [U.S.] War Department, General Loomis reviewed the French rifle situation as it stood on the eve of ANVIL. He estimated that the French had received a total of approximately 215,000 rifles including 167,000 M1917's, 47,000 M1903's, 740 M1's, and 13,400 M1 carbines. Of the total, 4,000 rifles and carbines had gone to the French Air Force, and all the M1 rifles to the 1st Parachute Regiment (1st RCP). The over-all figure was considered adequate to cover the needs of the expeditionary forces as well as those of replacements and training centers."

i'm doubtful that the figure could change so drastically so quickly. Perhaps the author of the site was thinking of later shipments?

Possibly, but I dont know enough about it to criticise the figure. I think it's important to remember that the number of members of the Maquis, and subsequently the FFI, vastly increased after D-Day. I have seen a few numbers quoted for resistance fighters operational prior to D-Day, all on the low thousands side, certainly not into double figures in thousands.

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at January 27, 2014 at 5:32 PM

Possibly, but I dont know enough about it to criticise the figure. I think it's important to remember that the number of members of the Maquis, and subsequently the FFI, vastly increased after D-Day. I have seen a few numbers quoted for resistance fighters operational prior to D-Day, all on the low thousands side, certainly not into double figures in thousands.

Here is a link or two that may be of interest:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/181070082/CMH-Pub-11-6-Rearming-the-French-pdf

http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-297760.html

The latter also tells a bit about the Brazilian contingent. You may find it to be of some interest.

Thank you :-)

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at January 28, 2014 at 5:23 AM

Thank you :-)

Actually, the second link is wrong in a way-the Brazilians apparently used the M1903 Springfield, not the Garand. BTW, I posted the link because I figured that if you eventually wish to include the Brazilians in detail in the future, that thread may have some helpful info. I know that wikipedia has been helpful, another good site is militaryphotos.net.

Hmmm I have seen pics of the Brazilian infantry with garands. Lot of springfields let over after conversion to the garand so makes sense that they would be distributed in the AQmericas.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what the 14th Infantry Division had?

My research indicated solely that the division was underarmed in general terms, and equipped itself with anything it could beg, borrow, or steal. I think it would be more than fair to expect a lot of German kit, as well as any weapons used by the Vichy forces. I have seen pictures of FFI infantry in Alsace [which is where 14th was raised], and they were using thompsons, stens, Kar98s, and a number of weapons that I couldnt identify, although they had the look of something a bit long in the tooth.