THE RED GAMBIT SERIES

New to the forum and love the tease of emerging tech that is being introduced.

I do have some ideas/questions.

1) Much like the U.S. mass produced radar sets, what about the German IR tech? ( in particular gun sights and sights for drivers).

2) Access to better metals to improve the Heinkel jet engine ( the power plant for a lot of 1946 jet ideas), in addition to the TA -183.

3) Mass production of ST 44 for entire German forces. Stamped metal , much easier to produce, ease on logistics for ammo, a game changer in the volume and capability of firepower.

4) Fritz X and other guided munitions that could be used in the interdiction /strategic roles.

A final question is in regards to production figures. Are Speers' claims based upon his use of mass production methods which he admired about Ford now that Hitler isn't around to hinder him?

Last first... Speer's claims are on what he can presently salvage from existing german industry alone, with resources in country or available from European nations by agreement. Mass producing and metallurgical issues are for later as I see it. Now it's all about grabbing stuff and putting in hands, from whatever source possible.

However, whilstthe possibility that ME262's et al could be mass produced in the USA is not one I will consider, the likelihood that machining available in Europe could be reproduced for certain items is almost certain. You cite the ST44 as one example, and that, with the MG42, would be almost a certainty, as they would have been extremely easy to manufacture.

Between the non-no of the 262 and the yes-yes of the ST44 lie many other things, some of which I woudl anticipate might wet the pallet. However, a word of caution. The Allies understood, unlike the Germans, that quantity has a quality all of its own, so don't expect mass produced Tiger II's. Similarly, the Type XXI sub could be manufactured. My point on that would be why they would bother.

so, I guess the bottom ,ine is, what WOULD the Allies now manufacture, if they could produce any item, previous or from the drawing  board? Would they go for, to use British examples, the Centurion? Tortoise? Comet? Avenger? Meteor?

I know what I think about what they would have produced :-)

I completely understand your line of reasoning.  I also have to keep in mind the timeframe and what it takes to restart devastated industries.

I understand the highly unlikely retooling of US I industries to build German weapons, particularly the complicated items.  On the European side, I understand that Germany was trying to standardize tanks or parts for ease of production.  I seem to recall that a later war Panther was not much more expensive to build than a Panzer IV.  Tigers, Tiger II' we're too complicated and time consuming to manufacture.  In addition, they were not nearly as mobile or reliable.

Some tech might be reasonably assumed to be copied, such as the IR tech (much like the radar sets mentioned before).  I honestly don't know how long swept wing tech could be translated into US and UK designs.  The Germas, assuming they have Kurt Tank and friends could continue their endeavors s I'll once the best wind tunnel at the time was located in France.

I am just throwing out ideas. I absolutely love the strand have devoured all of them and greatly anticipate your next book.

And now a thought for you... hybrids :-)

Centurions with Tiger II 88mm cannons? it's only a small step up from the QF 20 pounder which was going into the centurion II which the first production model in November 1945.

allied forces in combat in Europe have access to the biggest field workshop in the world, "The Ruhr". This has to be more important for the maintanence, repair & upgrading of current & new allied weapons production supplemented with easily produced things like bullets, shells, ST44, MG42,panzerfausts & vampire night sights etc.. I would think that fedral german forces wolud be increasingly re-equiped with US gear for ease of re-supply (including uniforms, insignia aside).

I think that the US would be supplying pretty much everyone, except the Russians! The demand for US kit would be phenomenal for sure, and any country that could be a little self-sufficient would not find itself waiting in line for its turn with M4's, M26's and Garands. Again, I look at what could probably be done in the scenario I have created and would say that St44/MG42 would be likely across the board, possibly to go as far as being produced for other nations than the Federal Germans. Plus, the cast captured stocks that have already been fed back to the German Army and others, such as the Spanish. However, if the capacity to manufacture 88mm 43/L71's existed, I suspect that it would not have been put into centurions in place of the 17 or 20 pdr. That would require turret modifications for sure, entailing more delay and trials for something that was sufficiently potent in its basic 17pdr form. Remember, it would be the Allies driving this change, not the Germans. Any 43/71 production would be likely to find its way into a hybrid at worst, or new production of an old design at best. However, local modifications would be interesting, and I set the scene for that with the gathering of the Legion’s resources when it was discovered that they might not be getting the replacement vehicles they expected.

I can see no reason why the panzerfaust will not be manufactured by the western allies, and none why it wouldn’t be manufactured by the Red Army either! I have yet to decide if I will do either, or permit it to decline in numbers just to balance matters lol

The hi grade techie stuff is more difficult to assess. UHU and other infra-red would be great, and the Allies had their own kit too, so it may be even likely that it will appear. However, there is a training payoff required for that.

All in all, I find the possibilities fascinating to think of, but it is very necessary to keep the feet firmly on the ground and always consider the why’s and wherefore’s of it all, not just be influenced by the romantic vision of hordes of US and German King Tigers sweeping majestically through Europe on their way to Vladivostok, all with an air umbrella of thousands of ME262s.

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at March 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM

I think that the US would be supplying pretty much everyone, except the Russians! The demand for US kit would be phenomenal for sure, and any country that could be a little self-sufficient would not find itself waiting in line for its turn with M4's, M26's and Garands. Again, I look at what could probably be done in the scenario I have created and would say that St44/MG42 would be likely across the board, possibly to go as far as being produced for other nations than the Federal Germans. Plus, the cast captured stocks that have already been fed back to the German Army and others, such as the Spanish. However, if the capacity to manufacture 88mm 43/L71's existed, I suspect that it would not have been put into centurions in place of the 17 or 20 pdr. That would require turret modifications for sure, entailing more delay and trials for something that was sufficiently potent in its basic 17pdr form. Remember, it would be the Allies driving this change, not the Germans. Any 43/71 production would be likely to find its way into a hybrid at worst, or new production of an old design at best. However, local modifications would be interesting, and I set the scene for that with the gathering of the Legion’s resources when it was discovered that they might not be getting the replacement vehicles they expected.

I can see no reason why the panzerfaust will not be manufactured by the western allies, and none why it wouldn’t be manufactured by the Red Army either! I have yet to decide if I will do either, or permit it to decline in numbers just to balance matters lol

The hi grade techie stuff is more difficult to assess. UHU and other infra-red would be great, and the Allies had their own kit too, so it may be even likely that it will appear. However, there is a training payoff required for that.

All in all, I find the possibilities fascinating to think of, but it is very necessary to keep the feet firmly on the ground and always consider the why’s and wherefore’s of it all, not just be influenced by the romantic vision of hordes of US and German King Tigers sweeping majestically through Europe on their way to Vladivostok, all with an air umbrella of thousands of ME262s.

What about the Stg 45? Wouldn't the Allies prefer to put that into production? Or is it unproven whereas the Stg44 is? What types of tanks do you think the Germans will continue to mass produce? Panthers? Panzer IVs? Tiger Is?

BTW, Chris, who do you think the Germans will manufacture the ST44 for? Also, wouldn't they continue manufacturing the Kar98k for the time being? At least until they're ready for mass producing the STG?

I think with the stamping techniques, the ST 44 perhaps 45 would be easier to produce than the kar98. Millions of those already lying g around. The 44 allows for the elimination of the mp40 and major production of the 98. This simplifies manufacturing with only one new, and very revolutionary weapon which brings vastly superior firepower in the ranges that were the most common engagement range, 300m.  I believe the Germans did a study and discovered that most combat occurred within 300m.

I also saw use of the panzershreck (sorry about spelling).  Was that superior to the bazooka?.  If so, that would give further engagement ranges for infantry teams.  While pans e racists could be issued at the squad level.

Also thought on your discussion about the U.S. supplying items.  Jeeps and trucks would probably be of immense value since the Germans had to rely on a hodgepodge of trucks and a lot of horse drawn logistics. 

Marcus1870 at March 21, 2014 at 11:32 PM

I think with the stamping techniques, the ST 44 perhaps 45 would be easier to produce than the kar98. Millions of those already lying g around. The 44 allows for the elimination of the mp40 and major production of the 98. This simplifies manufacturing with only one new, and very revolutionary weapon which brings vastly superior firepower in the ranges that were the most common engagement range, 300m.  I believe the Germans did a study and discovered that most combat occurred within 300m.

I also saw use of the panzershreck (sorry about spelling).  Was that superior to the bazooka?.  If so, that would give further engagement ranges for infantry teams.  While pans e racists could be issued at the squad level.

I don't think the MP40 production will be completely stopped. After all, the '40 has a folding stock, while the ST44 doesn't. So the MP40 will still be useful at least in some cases, such as arming tank and other vehicle crewmen, paratroopers, commandos, et al.

Im off out for the day, so will pick up answering these posts later gents.

I would think that putting a folding stock on a ST 44 might reduce manufacturing costs but agree with the mp40 being a farmer's weapon as the ST 44 is much larger.

Marcus1870 at March 22, 2014 at 6:38 AM

I would think that putting a folding stock on a ST 44 might reduce manufacturing costs but agree with the mp40 being a farmer's weapon as the ST 44 is much larger.

The St44's recoil spring runs into the stock, so a folding stock version would be rather difficult.

Good point. Standard folding stock wouldn't work lol.

*Contains Spoilers*

The ST44 is also rather more bulky than people think, and I wouldn’t see it as a para weapon in the first instance. If the ST44 is manufactured, then it would be for the Germans in the first instance, but I don’t doubt that the value of the weapon would become appreciated by others. As always, logistics would play a part in these decisions. Plus, if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it. US forces would have the Garand and the Thompson, .30 and .50cals. Mixing in the st44 and mg42 would cause real problems I think. All new units could be trained in new weaponry of course, and then their logistics would be set up appropriately. On the bazooka/panzerschreck issue. I see the bazooka as a clear winner across the board. I don’t want to be drawn too far on that one. However, the ease of manufacture and use of the panzerfaust will mean it has to figure in production soon.

My main problem is going to be interpreting the needs of the time, as exerted by the scenario I have created. Let me look back on the CVN's. They will have already been built or being built within this time frame. If there was a viable IJN or Soviet Pacific fleet, then they would have a part to play. At the moment, I see them purely as floating airfields for ground attack over china and eastern USSR, although existing CV's would be able to do the job admirably. There is no imperative for an Allied must-have. What in the Allied inventory must they have? For sure, they must keep up the stocks of reserve and front-line aircraft, as that is one place where the Allies are clearly in the ascendency. Naval assets? Unless the soviets surge shed loads of XXI's again, the Allied navies in the west have limited use... unless... :-) Moving quickly on. Tanks and guns, bullets and bombs. With industry starting to convert back at the beginning of RG, the tooling would be back in place and the M4's and Cromwells would be rolling off the lines, as would the late Marks of Spitfire, Mustangs, B17's et al. Across the board, the weapons were generally up to the job, although the unarmed Cromwells would have been replaced with Comets in my view.

Where will the Soviets make improvements? We all know that they need to do something aircraft-wise or they are stuffed. SO there may be a technological race in the sky. Undoubtedly, Soviet tanks are being ramped up. We have seen the T44 and the T54/55 already, so there will be an imperative for improvements to Allied armour, or, at least, greater issue of the best vehicles already available. There simply has to be a glut of Pershings at some time, and the Centurion, in the hands of a good crew, has already proved its worth at Brahmsee. I also have plans for the Avenger, but beyond that the waters muddy. Again the issue is stopping producing something that works, in favour of something new, with the accompanying logistic and training issues.

Writing historical fiction is not what you might think. The author simply doesn’t have free rein to throw in anything and everything, at least not if he wishes to remain credible.

No I completely agree.  I appreciate your situation where you have consider the timeline as it stands now and the imperative to do sometime before the Red hordes hit the Atlantic.  Things can't be magically conjured up when one considers retooling and the philosophies of the countries.

I enjoy your well thought out saga.

I faile to understand why the USA would want to deal with the ME 262, when Lockheed had a contract (that was canceled with the dropping of the two A bombs) to build 5,000 P-80's/year?  I would think that several fighter groups equipped with P-80's would be in the ETO over the winter, with Vampire equiped RAF squadrons just a little later?

Why would the USA try to make ST44's, when the fully automatic M-1 carbine is just around the corner - and there were versions with folding stocks?  

It did not take the USA long to develop the 90mm "Super Bazooka" during the Korean War when it became obvious the original bazooka was not bery effective vs. T-34/85's.  They could be available by late spring/early summer.

Shall I even mention Operation Paperclip or Operation LUSTY?

I think my point may have been misconstrued.  I don't think the U.S. would have built the 262 . They would have benefited by the swept wing recharging was used in the F-86.  The Germans would have benefited from possible metal access, such as high strength stees to lighten the ST44 and to prolong the Jump engine compressor and power turbine blade lives which would have increased engine life.  

As far as the M1 Carbine, well as WW 2 and the Korean War demonstrated, the weapon was less than satisfactory, being well underpowered.  The ST 44 and definitely the ST45 are shorter and weigh less than a M1 Garande which paratroopers used. Except for tanks, there's no reason why paratroopers could use one.

I would never expect the U.S. to adopt German systems outright.  After all "We won the war, right?" Yet the M60 machine gun was based upon the MG42, all modern assault rifles can trace their lineage to the ST44.  The Allied bias ,logistical issues, and manufacturing issues would have prevented the U.S. from ever manufacturing it but their assistance might help the Ruhr or France in cranking them out.  Now IR use, that's different as the U.S. cranked out radar sets given to them by the British.

US assistance might also help in developing the HeS 011 engine, the successor to the Jumo engine.  

Operation Paper Clip is precisely what I have been talking about. Not just outright systems but a pooling of technologies.

On the m1 carbine, i have yet to meet a veteran who felt it was satisfactory in terms of stopping power. I dont think teh suggestion was that the US would build the 44 or the 42, but that the resources to do so would be made available in europe. Vampires and P80's may well have their place shortly. After all, we already have seen soviet jet prototypes in action... or not quite lol