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Forum Home > General Discussion > What kinds of equipment other than German will the Spanish have?

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

In Breakthrough, Nazabayeva stated that both German and Italian hardware was sent to the Spanish. Also, elsewhere it was stated the the Spanish had both German and Allied weaponry. What kind of Italian and Allied weapons were sent to Spain?

August 13, 2014 at 2:17 AM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

I like easy ones :-) Any Italian issue kit that had been captured in the desert. French small arms circa 1940. I debated on giving them springfields at one time but didnt decide.

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August 13, 2014 at 4:26 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 13, 2014 at 4:26 AM

I like easy ones :-) Any Italian issue kit that had been captured in the desert. French small arms circa 1940. I debated on giving them springfields at one time but didnt decide.

I see at least three different calibers. First off, the Italian weapons would no doubt be Carcano rifles, similar to those used previously in the Spanish Civil War, and the would be in 6.5mm. I think that the French would probably give some of their MAS 36 rifles (in 7.5mm), because they would probably want to give Spain the newest and best of those 1940 era weapons, and then the Springfields, in .30/7.62x63mm. Logistics would be murder-then again Spain is probably familar with diverse requirements.

August 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 13, 2014 at 4:26 AM

I like easy ones :-) Any Italian issue kit that had been captured in the desert. French small arms circa 1940. I debated on giving them springfields at one time but didnt decide.

How will you have the Spanish troops equipped? Will you have each unit armed with only one type of weaponry? Like one battalion will have Mausers, another will have Carcanos, et al?

August 15, 2014 at 3:05 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 13, 2014 at 4:26 AM

I like easy ones :-) Any Italian issue kit that had been captured in the desert. French small arms circa 1940. I debated on giving them springfields at one time but didnt decide.

Just out of curiosity, did you decide on whether or not to give the Spanish Springfields? Also do you think I was correct in my assumption that France would give their Spanish allies some of their MAS 36 rifles, or would they have given them Berthiers?

August 19, 2014 at 9:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

I haven't decided, as Spain plays a relatively small role, but there would be shedloads of Springfield about so someone would get them. Why not the Spaniards, or Mexicans etc.

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August 20, 2014 at 6:11 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 20, 2014 at 6:11 AM

I haven't decided, as Spain plays a relatively small role, but there would be shedloads of Springfield about so someone would get them. Why not the Spaniards, or Mexicans etc.

If I were in charge of allocation, I would limit the number of Springfields, so as to not burden the Spanish excessively with regard to logistics. Also, with regard to Carcanos, do you think the Spanish would prefer M91 long rifles or 91/38 short models? I'm asking because the Allies no doubt captured a variety of different Carcano models, and I think that they would want to limit the types of rifles adopted in general so as to prevent difficulties in logistics.

August 20, 2014 at 9:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

I think that, by that time, the understanding about normal batte engagement distances was such that weapons of a caapability between 300-400 metres were considered more than sufficient and efficient. The 6.5mm cartridge was only used in the parent weapon, so theres no logictic advantage of one over the other.

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August 21, 2014 at 3:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 21, 2014 at 3:00 AM

I think that, by that time, the understanding about normal batte engagement distances was such that weapons of a caapability between 300-400 metres were considered more than sufficient and efficient. The 6.5mm cartridge was only used in the parent weapon, so theres no logictic advantage of one over the other.

The 6.5 was used in both. You may be thinking of the original M38, the one in 7,35mm.

August 21, 2014 at 4:01 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 13, 2014 at 4:26 AM

I like easy ones :-) Any Italian issue kit that had been captured in the desert. French small arms circa 1940. I debated on giving them springfields at one time but didnt decide.

In OM, Nazabayeva said that German prisoners stated that the Spanish may have also recevied French Army armor. What kind would it be? Char B1 tanks? Also, here is a list of French rifle types from about 1940:

- Fusil Lebel Mle 1886/93 (8mm, 8 rounds) was largely replaced by the different Berthier rifles but as you know was still present in 1940

 

 

 

- Fusil Berthier Mle 07/15 (8mm, 3 rounds), replacing the Lebel rifle in 1915, still present in 1940 but few

 

 

 

- Fusil Berthier Mle 1916 (8mm, 5 rounds), replaced the Lebel and 07/15 rifle in 1916, the MOST COMMON in 1940 (most of the infantry divisions, fortress infantry etc.)

 

 

 

- Fusil Automatique Mle1917 and 1918 (8mm, 5 rounds, semi-auto) : 90,000 produced. Mostly used during the Rif war but the 1917 model equipped French snipers and the others were spread among all units and given to the sharpshooters.

 

 

 

- The Berthier rifle 1907/15 M34 (7.5mm, 5 rounds), 45,000 delivered in 1938 issued to the professional units

 

 

 

- MAS Mle 36 (7.5mm, 5 rounds), 250,000 delivered in 1939/1940 (60,000 before the beginning of the phoney war, and the rest during the following months but 250,000 were used in the units) also issued primarily to all active units (about 250,000 men) (the professionnal ones : chasseurs portés, dragons portés, corps francs, chasseurs alpins, infanterie de l'air, légionnaires, some cavalry and infantry divisions) and to snipers

 

 

 

- Mousqueton Berthier Mle 1892 M16 (8mm, 5 rounds) was used in the cavalry and several other units like artillery units I guess ... But it was also present in the Chasseurs Alpins, in the Corps Francs beside the rifles

 

 

 

- Mousqueton Lebel Mle1886/93 R35 (8 mm, 6 rounds) present in 1940 and mostly used by police units (traffic regulation) and cavalry units as well as artillery units.

 

You may find that list to be of some interest and use.

August 24, 2014 at 5:40 AM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

The tanks that I envisaged the Spanish receiving were from across the range. I wasn't sure on teh information that I found in research that stated that some French units did abscond to Spain post-defeat, and that some took their armour with them. i had a little difficulty with seeing the Spanish permitting such a thing, and indeed, the mechanics of that process without some sort of fighting starting. Thanks for the other info.

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August 24, 2014 at 5:49 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 24, 2014 at 5:49 AM

The tanks that I envisaged the Spanish receiving were from across the range. I wasn't sure on teh information that I found in research that stated that some French units did abscond to Spain post-defeat, and that some took their armour with them. i had a little difficulty with seeing the Spanish permitting such a thing, and indeed, the mechanics of that process without some sort of fighting starting. Thanks for the other info.

Even if some Vichy troops did bring their tanks with them into Spain, I doubt that they'd see action in the war. After all, they probably wouldn't be much of a match (to say the least) to the T-34s, and especially the T-54s and IS series, even the Char B1s. 

August 24, 2014 at 4:53 PM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

I agree. The Spanish army actually did have some pz IV and stags.


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August 24, 2014 at 6:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 24, 2014 at 6:06 PM

I agree. The Spanish army actually did have some pz IV and stags.


I've heard about the Panz IVs. If I'm not mistaken, the Spanish kept them until the 1950s or so.

August 24, 2014 at 9:14 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

Keith Lange at August 24, 2014 at 5:40 AM

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 13, 2014 at 4:26 AM

I like easy ones :-) Any Italian issue kit that had been captured in the desert. French small arms circa 1940. I debated on giving them springfields at one time but didnt decide.

In OM, Nazabayeva said that German prisoners stated that the Spanish may have also recevied French Army armor. What kind would it be? Char B1 tanks? Also, here is a list of French rifle types from about 1940:

- Fusil Lebel Mle 1886/93 (8mm, 8 rounds) was largely replaced by the different Berthier rifles but as you know was still present in 1940

 

 

 

- Fusil Berthier Mle 07/15 (8mm, 3 rounds), replacing the Lebel rifle in 1915, still present in 1940 but few

 

 

 

- Fusil Berthier Mle 1916 (8mm, 5 rounds), replaced the Lebel and 07/15 rifle in 1916, the MOST COMMON in 1940 (most of the infantry divisions, fortress infantry etc.)

 

 

 

- Fusil Automatique Mle1917 and 1918 (8mm, 5 rounds, semi-auto) : 90,000 produced. Mostly used during the Rif war but the 1917 model equipped French snipers and the others were spread among all units and given to the sharpshooters.

 

 

 

- The Berthier rifle 1907/15 M34 (7.5mm, 5 rounds), 45,000 delivered in 1938 issued to the professional units

 

 

 

- MAS Mle 36 (7.5mm, 5 rounds), 250,000 delivered in 1939/1940 (60,000 before the beginning of the phoney war, and the rest during the following months but 250,000 were used in the units) also issued primarily to all active units (about 250,000 men) (the professionnal ones : chasseurs portés, dragons portés, corps francs, chasseurs alpins, infanterie de l'air, légionnaires, some cavalry and infantry divisions) and to snipers

 

 

 

- Mousqueton Berthier Mle 1892 M16 (8mm, 5 rounds) was used in the cavalry and several other units like artillery units I guess ... But it was also present in the Chasseurs Alpins, in the Corps Francs beside the rifles

 

 

 

- Mousqueton Lebel Mle1886/93 R35 (8 mm, 6 rounds) present in 1940 and mostly used by police units (traffic regulation) and cavalry units as well as artillery units.

 

You may find that list to be of some interest and use.

Just out of curiosity, which rifles do you think the French would've gave to their Spanish friends? I was thinking mas 36, because they may want to give them the best and newest of the 1940 era rifles to make up for giving so few of their Mausers.

August 24, 2014 at 10:53 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

So how will the Spanish handle the matter of ammo supply? They probably make 7.9mm ammo themselves, but what about the other calibers?

August 27, 2014 at 2:46 AM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

I suspect you're right.


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August 27, 2014 at 6:28 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk at August 27, 2014 at 6:28 AM

I suspect you're right.


About the 7.92mm? They started to manufacture the Modelo 1943 Mauser at La Coruna arsenal, after all. And what about the other calibers, like 6.5mm? Who will manufacture the rounds?

August 27, 2014 at 7:22 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Keith Lange
Member
Posts: 325

Will the Spanish get St44s?

August 31, 2014 at 3:32 PM Flag Quote & Reply

ChrisC
Administrator
Posts: 35

unlikely :-)

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A moment of luck, good or bad, often plays a greater part in our destiny than hours of design.

Ernst-August Knocke

September 1, 2014 at 4:28 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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