THE RED GAMBIT SERIES

Author Colin Gee

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Forum Home > General Discussion > What happened to the Fins?(Spoiler)

Duceman
Member
Posts: 9

Just finished book 3 and I'm anxiously awaiting book 4. I like the authors emphasis that all sides had good people and bad people. I like what the Yarishholv did for Ramsey.

My question for the group and author is what about the Fins? We all know what happened in the Winter War. There is no chance and I mean none, 0 whatever that the Russians would go on the attack and leave a potential back door wide open. It would either be that or station about 60 divisions on the Lenningrad front to prevent an incurison. I was shocked that I didn't see Finland in the allied chart at the end of  book 3. Has this been discussed? Curious to hear some thoughts on this.

Thanks Duceman


October 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

Good question. Without spoiling anything, I shall try and give this a go.

The Finnish Army of the Winter War did extremely well against the Red Army at the time. The Red Army of 1945 would have been a different matter.

Finland was 'removed' from WW2 by treaty, one that penalised her greatly and also required the removal of all German soldiers from Finnish territory. This resulted in an extended period of combat between Nazi Germany and Finland as the latter tried to clear its borders. Peversely, the treaty also required Finnish demobilisation. I know... weird!

Now, unlike the Winter War, one thing I understand about that time was the lack of appetite for further combat amongst the Finns in general and ,very specifically, amongst the military.

In my thinking, this lack of desire, plus the fact that they had no immediate Allies close enough to lend substantial assistance, plus the much-changed Red Army, would have kept Finland from the war in August 1945.

I don't think any differently now. Should those factors alter then it may well be that Finland has a part to play in Red Gambit :-)

None the less, where I have made an error is in not even referring to my reasoning and exclusion of Finland within the books. I must find some way of addressing that. Good question though. Thanks.

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October 22, 2013 at 5:35 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Duceman
Member
Posts: 9

Cool. Yeah, you're probably right. The fins suffered something like 26K KIA in the Winter War. This would be the equal to about 10M american deaths with Population factor. The Fins were tough as balls. I thought it might be going there for a bit(maybe it will) with the interesting activity with the Swedes. I would think if the Swedes jumped in, then the reds would have no choice but to march right across Scandanavia. Good point on the Russian army being vastly different in '45 as opposed to '41. This series of books gives an interesting and probably right on view of the Red army in '45. I said when I signed up that my favorite figure was Col. Knocke and he's top 3 still. I love the part of the book of including the powerful Germans and from what I can see by the picture of Impasse, it looks like more of that is coming. My new favorite dude is Marshall Zhukov. Love the books.

October 23, 2013 at 5:02 PM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

Glad you like the stuff :-)

Been thinking a tad more about the Finns. If I had introduced them, on which side would they have served? Virtually surrounded by the hostile Red Army, would they have served with the USSR? Not a chance; too much history. Would they have served with the Allies? I believe that would be  their preferred allegience but what would trouble me is how that would have been done without simply offering up what remained of Finland to the USSR. The Allies did not know the attacks were coming; therefore neither did the Finns. To all intents and purposes, the Red Army is moving west for all of the opening months, lessening the chance of any meaningful allied support for Finland and increasing the distance between possible Allies.

The Finns would have realised that anything other than an extremely silent neutrality would do nothing but end their nation.

What do you reckon?

When chatting with German veterans, it is fair to say that they all held that the Red Army in 1945 was a professional outfit. Those who fought in 1941 certainly would say totally different  to the masses that died and capitulated in the Barbarossa Blitzkreig.

Favourite characters? Even I have them lol Knocke is one of them for sure, a combination of ideals and codes brought together to produce a man of honour. Nazarbayeva most definitely, although in my very first draft of the basic story spider, she did not exist! Yarishlov and Deniken, the two seem almost joined at the hip now. Perhaps, because I know what is to come [spoiler alert] Crisp and Shandruk have a special place for me, as do Makarenko and Haefeli, the latter for very sentimental reasons.

Again, and this could be seen as a spoiler, it may well be that your view of these individuals may be challenged by events and actions in subsequent volumes. That is certainly my intent :-)

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October 23, 2013 at 5:47 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Duceman
Member
Posts: 9

I hear you my friend. it's really an interesting question about the Fins. It's difficult to predict what the Fins would do. I would imagine that few people in 1940 that would have thought that the Fins would have actually walked away from the bargaining table and actually accept to goto war and accept invasion from a world super power next door. I wish the Winter War was more widley known. I can't think of many other instances of national bravery. Pure balls. Anyway, Part of the reason for the war is that the Reds were rightly wary of their potential vulnerability around Leningrad and many knew a war with germany was only a question of when. I think you hit on this in book 1 which I thought was cool. They did sign with the Germans in ww2, but they kind of had too and then kicked them out at the right time. Mannerheim played his cards right. I would think that right around now, with a semi stabilization of the lines and solid allied victorys that the Fins would surely throw in with the allies. It would give them a chance for real stabilzation with victory. Another interesting piece was that their was almost a revolt in Sweden, during the winter war because of their Governments cowardly actions in not supporting their brothers. Obviously, there were many Swedish volunteers who fought on their own with the Fins. I personally don't think the Swedes would ever make that mistake again and we would see solid Scanadavian unity. Perhaps a good character for a future book would be Mannerheim. He would be really interesting to read , just like Zhukov.

Interesting about Knocke. One think I like about the books is that it correctly gives the Germans their due as fighting men. Especially the SS. In today's world, our kids will never be taught this, for obvious political reasons and many people incorrectly think that the Germans were Barbarians. We both know they were not and I like that the books go into detail on this. Most were very much men of honor and fought for no other reason that Country. Just like Knocke. I like reading about the Russians but i get their names mixed up and in long chapters I just have this weird feeling that I should be drinking Vodka.

Either way, I think it's really cool to talk about the What ifs. 

P.S I really like Crisp and personally partial to the 101st so I'm looking to read more about him.

October 23, 2013 at 9:59 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Duceman
Member
Posts: 9

P.S The best book I read on the Winter War was a book called Frozen Hell by William Trotter. Excellent read and my all time favorite ww2 book, that I'm sure you have read is "Forgotten Soldier". I picture the dude from that book whenever I read about fighting Panzer divisions.

October 23, 2013 at 10:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Duceman
Member
Posts: 9

Now I can't sleep an am pondering the supply question to the Fins. It's an excellent point. Like I said my belief would be the Scandavians would stick together. If they were in it together. I'm going to assume with the Red Navy in heavy Patrol in the North Sea ETC, but as of recently they have started to take losses. Would it be possible and worthwhile for the allies to risk heavy sea convoy's that could just make it to Northern Norway? Then they could go over land, north of the artic circle. I would think movement of tanks would be fairly easy, but the trick would be getting them there. The other options could be airborne, but it would still leave the allies wanting for lack of quaility units on the front. To be worth while, you would need at least 1st British, 101st, 82nd maybe 17th too. I'm just not sure if this would be possible, which is what I think you were saying too. I won't be able to stop thinking of this. The other question I was going to ask you, is that I like that you talk about the forgotten allies, like the Brazillians in your book. Are the Mexicans coming? I wish Santa Anna could come back to life and command the Mexican Expeditionary force. Ok, I'm going to go to bed now and will take a shot of Vodka for my boy Yarishlov. Thanks for taking the time to listen to the little people like me. I think it's cool you do that.

Duceman

October 23, 2013 at 10:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

gee_colin@yahoo.co.uk
Site Owner
Posts: 910

I listen to everyone, even my best mate, and he's a total plum :D I'm not totally sure that the Allies would want to open up another land area at the moment. I'm stil unclear as to the balance of things with Finland. Measure what you might gain by what you might lose etc. If you have a gander at Zhukov's list of 'an army from a hundred lands' you will find the answer to a number of questions such as Mexican intervention. Airborne is a non-starter. 82nd is wiped out, 101st is hammered, as is 17th. 13th isn't up to much. Brit airborne power is maxed at two divisions but  many of those are ex-pows. Dropping unsupported light infantry, even those armed with the new RCL's, in an area policed by professional men with no shortage  of armour, and in conditions to which they have adapted over centuries, would spell nothing more than the removal of the airborne threat from the Allied armoury. It may also be that, as has been insinuated, Ike has something else in mind for the silk riders.

If nothing else, this conversation has made me think about that area a little more and a couple of things have suggested themselves :-)

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October 24, 2013 at 3:25 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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